Article No.

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Preamble

Role of state governmental and non-governmental agencies does not feature, as these agencies are engaged in listing and protecting heritage buildings/ structures and areas through their own town planning acts and heritage conservation committees.

It is not clear under the broad headings in the structure of the charter who should use this charter.

Rajender Singh

Aren’t the tangible and intangible also reflected in historic towns and other places that would not be termed ‘cultural landscapes’?

Is it clear what is being referred to as ‘Unprotected’ in this preamble? It would help to add ‘protecting and’ before the word ‘preserving’ in Clause 3, OR by adding ‘by the ASI or SDA’ after the words ‘and unprotected’ in Clause 5, OR both.

I assume that you think the ASI and SDA would not accept an INTACH Charter that covered ALL cultural heritage places? (cf. our Burra Charter which is accepted by government and the private sector as the guidelines covering all heritage places).

William Logan

The title seems too exclude a whole range f unprotected built heritage: the Jew cemetery, Dutch cemetery as in Fort Cochin, and the likes across the country; the crosses dotted all over Goa… Perhaps to be all encompassing we need a charter for conservation of unprotected ‘cultural expressions in built form’. 

Poonam Verma

Why we are secluding “Protected” Architectural Heritage. Do we all agree with the principles / practice of conservation followed to conserve this heritage?

Munish Pandit

Page 1, Line 1 and Art. 6.2 make it very INTACH specific Charter only for INTACH to follow. Is that the intent or is it/ should it be a Charter for the Conservation of Unprotected Architectural Heritage of India - as the title suggests for all to follow.

Priyaleen Singh

I believe by including Architectural in the title, the scope of the Charter gets somewhat limited and appears to be excluding items that may not be architecturally significant but have historic, social or scientific (archaeological) significance.  The tension between the Title and the intent of the Charter becomes more pronounced as it talks about the protection/ conservation of traditional skill and use of traditional materials. I think this Charter should be for all types of heritage items not just architectural.

Rajeev Maini

The title including the term Unprotected give an impression that conservation & management principles for these potential heritage items are derived from their status as protected or unprotected.  As recommended by the Charter, more and more heritage items are to be identified and legally protected. The title suggests that once an item is listed and protected by some legislation, this Charter will not be applicable any more.  If that is the intent then punitive measures clause 6.5 that only relates to the listed items may not be necessary.

However, I suggest that the conservation and management principles be guided by the heritage significance of these items rather than their current status. This may already be the intent of this Charter but it is not very clear from the reading of the Charter.

Clause 3.2 hints that the management flexibility sought throughout this Charter relates to the items that are considered to be of lower significance than those having significance equal to ASI/SDA listed items.

If my reading of clause 3.2 is correct, this Charter is applicable to regional and local items only.  When I say Regional and Local items I am referring to their significance at regional and local level.  I think if this is what is sought, it should be made clear in the beginning of the Charter by answering the question – what is covered by this Charter.

However, I am not sure that this Charter should only be for some heritage items and not for the rest.  I think a Charter should be for all the items.  Different management conservation principles could then be recommended within this overall Charter for items having significance above or below a certain threshold. For this reason I feel that a more suitable title would simply be INTACH Charter for the Conservation of Indian Heritage.

Can we have it as INDIAN CHARTER?

Why unprotected only!!

(With reference to the clause that says - Respecting the invaluable contributions …) “Some of their work also makes our head hang in shame I know we have to be good but it can be diplomatic… despite limited resources type.”

(With reference to the clause that says - Valuing, ASI's pioneering role in promoting …) “Is it a true and honest statement!!!”

(With reference to the clause that says - Recognising, the unique resource of the ‘living’ heritage of Master Builders …) “Why forget smaller craftsmen who are great in their work too?”

(With reference to the clause that says - Recognising too, the concept of jeernodhari …)  “As one of the tools/ philosophies.”

Vikas Dilawari

Charter for the Conservation of Unprotected Architectural Heritage “and Sites (or another appropriate term)” of India

Nupur Prothi

1

1.1

1.2

1.3

1.4

Why Conserve?

The concept of ‘living’ heritage of India inspires the whole document, and ensures the ‘Indian-ness’ of Conservation in the Sub-Continent. It also leads to the inclusion of traditional crafts and skills (ref. 3.2.2).

Sir Bernard Feilden

We have Municipalities also which are now providing the protection to Heritage which is not under the Jurisdiction of ASI/SDA. Like Municipal Corporation of Delhi has issued list of buildings as protected by them or as Heritage Buildings. Do we expect these agencies to follow ASI or Proposed Document?

Munish Pandit

Charter For The Conservation Of Historic Towns And Urban Areas (Washington Charter 1987) says: “All urban communities, whether they have developed gradually over time or have been created deliberately, are an expression of the diversity of societies throughout history.

This charter concerns historic urban areas, large and small, including cities, towns and historic centers or quarters, together with their natural and man-made environments. Beyond their role as historical documents, these areas embody the values of traditional urban cultures.”

…you say that “uncontrolled” urbanism wipes out unprotected heritage. This suggests that there is “controlled” urbanism which spares this heritage. Talking of “uncontrolled” mediates a yearning for control, which will never happen and which will not serve the purpose.

In the same article you address a “sustainable basis” and an “ecological network”. These are two terms which made their round in the late eighties and entered whatever development strategy. I would not use these words. To conserve an “inter-dependent ecological network” seems to me a dream. You may say that conservation is altogether a dream. But more dreams enter into a charter the less it is credible.

Niels Gutschow

(… respect as the protected monuments.) “is not in culture of the people, nor in political mainstream and hence neglected presently like a fashion wave.”

(Much of this legacy … culture of the country.) “good point.”

(Its continued … monuments.) “word should be ‘heritage’ instead of ‘monuments’.

Vikas Dilawari

… I think it better not make a comparative statement, but perhaps to say that India is fortunate in having a significant amount of living heritage which contributes palpably to the country’s sense of place and its very character.

Ken Taylor

Any charter, Guideline or Recommendation cannot provide legal protection… It has to be adopted as an ACT. Are we looking for an Act?

Munish Pandit

… you say ‘unlike other societies’ where I would suggest amending the phrase to read ‘unlike most other societies’ because I would argue that in the UK, in many other European countries, and in Latin America - just to take a few examples - there is still a considerable amount of ‘living heritage’, though not always or often acknowledged as such.

Peter Burman

(This cultural characteristic is not legally protected …) “first it should be understood and then protected.”

(This civilisational marker … built environment.) “it is economical, efficient and time tested too.

Vikas Dilawari

Suggest you delete ‘at present’ to make the Charter last longer- i.e. into a future when, hopefully, the shortage of resources will be much less acute.

William Logan

If we have more and more projects and more Conservation Work is generated (and we perform as per Venice Charter i.e. using Traditional Skill and materials) Traditional skills will be propagated themselves.

Munish Pandit

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in Venice Charter (A.6).

Munish Pandit

Excellent point.

Vikas Dilawari

2

2.1

2.2

2.3

2.4

Conservation Objectives

All of it? Surely not. I think you need a reference here to ‘significance’ and a section under Conservation Ethics on the need to start the process by determining the heritage significance of places.

William Logan

Does it include modern buildings, Chandigarh, Gandhi Ashram etc.?

Vikas Dilawari

Both … ‘architectural heritage’ … ‘historic buildings’ … ‘setting’ … ‘historic precincts’ … environment.

I feel the need for each of these terms being clearly defined right in the beginning and then their consistent use in the subsequent sections.

Nupur Prothi

UNESCO: Operational Guidelines says it all. Architects alone are insufficient to tackle this issue… Anthropologist, Artists, sociologist etc. should be part… National Agencies Like IGNCA, Delhi University, IGNOU, JNU etc. should be part of it.

Munish Pandit

I find many of the sentiments in your Charter highly inspiring, for instance 2.2 where you say ‘the intangible heritage includes the still extant culture of traditional building skills and knowledge, the rites, ritual and social life and lifestyles of the inhabitants …’

Peter Burman

Very essential, great point but only where living traditions continue.

Vikas Dilawari

(Focussing on … intangible heritage.) “in some cases only as mentioned above.” (This ensures … it exists.) “fast eroding though.”

Vikas Dilawari

… the concept of Heritage Zone be included here.

S R Holkar

3

3.1

3.2

3.2          I

         II

3.3

3.3.1

3.3.2

3.4

3.4.1

3.4.2

3.4.3

3.4.4

3.5.1

3.5.2

3.6.1

3.7.1

3.8

3.8.1

3.8.2

3.9.1

3.9.2

3.10

3.11.1

3.12

3.12.1

3.13.1

3.13.2

3.14

3.14.1

3.14.2

3.14.3

3.14.4

Conservation Ethics

The parallelism created on ethics of conserving monuments and traditional buildings separates legal way of conserving and traditional way of conserving. If we are accepting that traditional skills and methods of conserving are alive in India then why don’t we recognize this as a main process to architectural conservation?

The issue of architectural heritage of exemplary significance becomes debatable, and suggesting methods similar to ASI/SDA of protection for exemplary architectural heritage.

If you believe that indigenous architecture is locally evolved then why is that it is not fully recognized that its protection and sustainability lies in indigenous techniques of construction and repair?

There are innumerable examples of indigenous buildings, which are of exemplary significance. Should we follow ASI here?

If we believe that the INTACH Charter is to follow a different approach for unprotected architectural heritage then that of ASI and process recommended in Venice and other charters, then it can be clearly mentioned.

Does it take on any central and state conservation policies in India?

Rajender Singh

On the issue of permitting changes in the physical integrity of buildings, I entirely agree with your stance.

Ken Taylor

Points 3.1-3.6 are probably the most important of the entire paper but it is difficult to find these.

3.13 and 3.14 should be found on the first page because it differs from the “international philosophy”.

Niels Gutschow

There are certain clauses such as patina or reversibility which are not applicable to the Indian charter hence we can avoid mentioning them as the charter is not to define what aspects of the other international charters are not applied.

Pankaj Modi

Obviously, the section on Conservation Ethics will be of great interest to us here, as it will be to your fellow professionals in India, but I personally very much empathise with the idea that ‘official and legal conservation practice’ is appropriate for conserving ‘protected monuments’, but not necessarily appropriate for the wider heritage.

Peter Burman

Many of the theories and principles have come to India in the post-colonial period as the result of the UN system, through UNESCO, moving into the heritage conservation field. ICOMOS and other parts of the international system that generates theories and principles about the heritage conservation also post-date colonialism in India.

William Logan

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

(While western ideology … the opposite.) “but minimal ensures economic returns which is must for our country where resources are limited.”

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

Do you not see a time when official protection through ASI or SDA (or some other new agencies) might expand its scope and move beyond the large iconic places into the realm of ‘living heritage’ that is currently unprotected? In other words, are you sure that the current protection status of heritage places is fixed and the right way to classify places in your Charter?

 How can these be an objective for conservation? Do you mean ‘before undertaking conservation’?

This seems to be giving a complete upper hand to development proposals and social welfare. I have no quarrel with the latter, but would it not be wise to qualify the reference to ‘development’ in some way? This could be done by adding at the end of the sentence the words ‘while seeking to achieve maximum protection of the significant values of the architectural heritage’.

William Logan

No Charter Oppose traditional practice to be used in conservation.

Line 2… “Western ideology underpins official and legal conservation Practice” Please explain …

Our traditional practices advocate minimum intervention… we always find layers of interventions in a historic building with only that much altered which was need of the time. In rare cases of any major / complete demolition and construction of new buildings old building materials were used with prevalent traditional techniques.

Munish Pandit

I would argue if traditions are alive still then that should be used even if its monuments, with rational analysis and not indiscriminate view of black and white, not the western or international standards. A simple example: cleaning of marble in Dilwara temples is not with Aretha so why introduce chemicals… it is economical… that’s a keep word if it has to sustain.

(The decision … knowledgeable raj mistri,) “/ustads.”

(In any case … undertaking conservation.) “continuity of traditions and economical viability.”

Vikas Dilawari

Assuming that this Charter is applicable to regional and local items only, Clause 3.2 II recommends that in this category one could either use modern or traditional techniques depending on the availability of skills.  I have no problems with this. However, I have a problem with saying that development and welfare of the community will take precedence over conservation.  My view is that conservation should be a part of the development process.  They should be able to co-exist.  Not one or the other.  And who is to decide what is good for the community - so called development or conservation of a heritage item?

This clause is too open and creates a rivalry between Development & Conservation. I think the last sentence in clause 3.2 II should be modified.  It is better to define the circumstances when it would be possible to allow major alteration/addition or even demolition of a heritage item.  These circumstances could be:

Where the owner could provide acceptable evidence that:

• the development is necessary for public good; and
• all other viable options have been explored and are not possible due to insurmountable reasons; and
• all effort has been made to minimize the impact of the development on the heritage significance; or
• the heritage item is structurally unsafe for public etc.

The discussion about the western ideology Vs Indian ideology needs a bit more thought.  In fact I am not sure there is that much of a difference between the western ideology and the Indian ideology.  So-called western countries use local materials and techniques where possible and economically viable.  But when they face challenges that cannot be met with traditional materials and techniques they use modern technology. United Kingdom is full on with its indigenous materials (lime mortars) for example.

In India also we use a mix of traditional and modern techniques depending upon the cost and availability of skills and materials. It is just that in India we tend to use modern materials for all Government works because the Govt. tendering system is designed that way.  It has a schedule of rates for RCC but cannot handle a Rajasthani sandstone column with carving to match existing.

Rajeev Maini

On the other hand more often than not, traditional materials and methods are used for private heritage items because they are cheaper and do not need to comply with any government regulation.

My view is that use of a particular material or technique is case sensitive and usually a mix of modern and traditional.  The issue here is APPROPRIATE materials and techniques rather than western or Indian. Where financially, technically and practically possible traditional materials and techniques should be used in the first place.

Part of Clause 3.2 (requiring INTACH to prepare lists), in my opinion, really does not belong in CONSERVATION ETHICS section. It is, though, an important part of this charter and should be included elsewhere within the Charter. 

Nara Document says even More.

Munish Pandit

I commented on the use of ‘cultural landscapes’ before. Isn’t the tangible and intangible heritage, traditional knowledge systems, etc. also reflected in historic towns and other places that would not be termed ‘cultural landscapes’?

This clause seems to use the concept of ‘authenticity’ is an unusual way. I wonder if there is some confusion with ‘heritage values’ (or even ‘criteria’) here. Authenticity normally means that a place faithfully reflects the significant values for which it has been conserved and/or protected. It is the heritage values that should be determined by the context. This is what you say, in fact, in the next clause (3.3.2).

William Logan

This clause refers to the use of official and legal guidelines to determine the authenticity being determined. The reference should be clearer. Are we talking about existing legal and official guidelines (that almost do not exist) or some future guidelines/bye-laws.

Rajeev Maini

(… cultural landscapes) “please define this word … very confusing …a new entrant is it the same that western world uses for”, (in which it exists, particularly if it is ‘living’, should define the authenticity of unprotected architectural heritage. “Valid view point, one school of thought, to be endorsed.”

(In the absence … authenticity being conserved.) “great.”

Vikas Dilawari

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

Is it possible to define the scale for conjecture and acceptable limit in Indian context? If yes Why not discuss and define…

Munish Pandit

This clause says that Local Master builders must be encouraged to follow their traditions.  No arguments about that but the key word is MASTER BUILDER – one who has been identified as having a certain level of sensitivity and skill. Should we also be thinking about a system to identify these Master Builders?

Rajeev Maini

(… contemporary exigencies …) “can a simple word be used for this?

It is easy said, the umbilical link in many cases have been broken, given a free hand it can be disastrous as in some cases where hybrid influence is seen of western plan form and Indian traditions, I have had experiences…

Vikas Dilawari

However, this where conservation architects should help in reviving traditions also by using their discretions by respecting master builders…I don’t know whether this clear… as things are not like Varansi and Ujjain in rest of the places, a lot of 19^th cent especially temples the original links are broken, plus indo- saracenic architecture etc…the formula will need modifications… this needs discussion…and arrived at based on collective experiences.

The continuity of traditions out rules any other concept of authenticity. That is what I have learnt here.

Niels Gutschow

Good point where it survives.

Vikas Dilawari

The situations described in 3.4.1 and 3.4.2 do not appear to be conjectural. Conjecture occurs where there is no available evidence in the form of documentation, oral histories or physical remains of the previous structure. See Burra Charter.

William Logan

I have always felt that the term ‘conjectural restoration’ trivializes the action. Can it be replaced by a simple and honest term such as ‘rebuilding’ especially in this context since it is being done in an honest way by the master craftsperson?

Priyaleen Singh

This clause introduces a new concept of Conjectural restoration.  Restoration is understood to mean re-fixing of original fabric (a fallen brick or stone) in its original location provided there is adequate evidence of its original location.  Conjecture on the other hand refers to a guess or a vision of how a particular element should have been.  I wonder if it is a typo and actually it meant to say Conjectural rebuilding instead.

Rajeev Maini

(Conjectural restoration … settings) “or the principals involved.”

(Its parameters … studies) “or based on practices and theory and present requirement too.” 

This is still unclear however…its good for now can be dealt with after a 5 year review)

Vikas Dilawari

The comment about ASI 100 meters radius does not fit well under the title Conjecture.  That radius purely relates to the protected Items.

Rajeev Maini

(The ASI/SDA rule … society.) “but often is the tool that’s saves the monument if used efficiently.”

(Ideally, for each … followed.) “Good point.”

Vikas Dilawari

This is better related to ‘authenticity’ rather than ‘integrity’. The latter refers to ensuring that there is not such an amount of change that the place loses its meaning or ‘readability’.

William Logan

Good point…things are not in clear black and white where hybridization has happened…domestic architecture of colonial cities for that matter.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.10)

Munish Pandit

But first attempts should be to reestablished traditional practices and materials should be first.

Vikas Dilawari

It depends whether the patina is part of the places’ significance.

William Logan

Venice charter does not insist on patina… it’s a general practice so far adopted by conservationists that too in monuments which are not felt suitable for reuse and are consolidated for posterity as an evidence of history.

Munish Pandit

I warm to your paragraph 3.6 about Patina.  In Scotland, we have many examples of tower houses of the 15-17 centuries being brought back from ruinous condition to living, comfortable and highly interesting homes.  We could show you many examples, some better achieved - no doubt - than others.

Peter Burman

‘In conformity with local aesthetic traditions’ can be a little subjective and controversial, as there often could be several local aesthetic traditions. May be this article need not be there. Although this Charter is attempting to cover all aspects, sometimes some things are better left unsaid.

Priyaleen Singh

(In conformity with local aesthetic traditions) “nice word but please define actually its very confusing in practice I can tell you that.”

Can be reviewed scientifically too where dirt and dust is a patina but harmful…requires more discussion or leave for review after 5 years.

Vikas Dilawari

Again, this is not the usual way the term ‘authenticity’ is used.

William Logan

While in principle the policy is right, I wish more was said about how to involve the community in decision making and at what level.  Would it be good enough to involve the local MLA or do we need to do more?  This to me could have the core of this Charter.

Rajeev Maini

(… decision-making.) “Only after educating the few good elders, Shantinath Jain teple in Mumbai was a disaster…refer MHCC rules on religious structures, I also came across a clause in some British India laws which gives flexibility… but has to be careful.

Good point but review larger areas like cities and small town which has more of hybrid colonial influence indigenous heritage.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.11).

Munish Pandit

I especially also like your paragraph 3.8 which is entitled Respect for the contributions of all periods. 

Peter Burman

Has also been mentioned in Integrity: 3.5.1

Priyaleen Singh

I feel here its playing clever…traditional solutions or common sense of present traditional craftsmen is not being used or even being suggested…As rightly said leave it evolving cultural significance.

Vikas Dilawari

(The coherence … meaning it holds) “what if community pattern has changed and has no meaning now.”

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.14).

Munish Pandit

(The conservation … reinforce it.) “positively where it exists.”

Vikas Dilawari

I fail to comprehend. How exactly an unprotected historic building/ precinct displays an apparent bond with contemporary society? It is engagement with the subject that allows for the bonding. Is it not?

With several provisions as in art. 3.14.1 objective of not hampering development in name of conservation is being achieved, then why this ambiguous idea.

Poonam Verma

Well if the Society does not want it… will not generate Conservation Project…

Munish Pandit

Should we say it in a Conservation Charter? Anyway even things of value are disappearing - do we have to specify that things of no value should be allowed to go?

Priyaleen Singh

This is a very open statement that can be used or misused rather by developers.  In most cases the bond is not readily apparent, it is hidden in the books of history and is only revealed by careful study and analysis.  The intent of the Clause is not clear.  In the wrong hands this could lead to major loss of historic fabric.

Rajeev Maini

But provided it does larger good to the area and society rather than shear commercial exploitation to benefits individuals - a must.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter.

Munish Pandit

Another important emphasis comes under 3.10 where you say ‘in the first instance…conservation should attempt minimal intervention’.

Peter Burman

This clause is a bit unclear to me.  Maybe if we turn it around it would read better.  ‘In the first instance conservation should involve minimal intervention.  However, substantial additions and alterations may be acceptable provided the significance of the subject heritage item is retained or enhanced.’

My view is that the intervention should be such that it has minimal impact on the significance of the heritage item.  A new addition at the rear or alteration of the interior may be acceptable if it has little or no impact on the significance of the subject heritage items.  As long as the significance is not compromised beyond an acceptable level, why limit the possibilities.  But for this principle it is imperative that the significance is defined accurately.

Rajeev Maini

(Conservation … heritage.) “or for substantiality as is the case in some properties.”

(In the first … intervention.) “for conserving of resources which is paramount importance, second it makes it economical too.”

Vikas Dilawari

“The needs of the community” I would not know what that is. The needs of the community is always over ruled by the interest (profit) of an individual. How to find out the needs? Also the “socio-economic regeneration of the local communities” seems to be equally vague for me. My experience tells me that these needs are constructed by the expert in the filed…I feel fine to let conservation just happen, as a gift. Appreciation comes later; it grows slowly. When I read of “local communities” I always feel that this is the view from the center, from Delhi.

Niels Gutschow

(The nature … practices) “where alive … in megapolis they are dead.”

Community is passive in India…its nice to use the buzz word community participation but reality is very different.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.5, 10). Why not… are we so perfect to decide… for the purpose of structural stability and reuse…Venice charter does permit us to take required steps.

Munish Pandit

Is it necessary to state the first line: ‘The reversibility of interventions need not dictate the conservation strategy’? It might encourage people to abandon reversibility even where it is possible.

Priyaleen Singh

I keep getting this feeling through the Charter that it is somehow trying to pacify some concerns raised by the development lobby. Surely development and heritage conservation can co-exist. Clause 3.12.1 throws away the basis for calling something a heritage item or heritage precinct, that is its heritage significance.

Rajeev Maini

It is suggesting that heritage significance has no meaning when it comes to socio-economic regeneration of the local communities.

This is a very dangerous clause and can be used by DDAs of India to drive a bulldozer through historic precincts by claiming that a change of land use and higher FSR will bring about regeneration of the local communities (it probably will).

I recommend that the necessity for this clause be re-examined in view of its possible catastrophic results.

(The reversibility … strategy.) “However if it can then its great.”

(In order to … reuse) “benefiting a larger society rather than individually.”

(For this … modified form.) “Good point.”

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.9).

Munish Pandit

Good point - a solution to this was worked out in one project namely : stained glass restoration where the British experts wanted date, sign to be put in small corner of new panels so that from 6 yard it was not distinguishable but from 6” you can see it…we instead worked out a way that the date and sign goes in the lead and only a restorer can see, however I agree fully with point.)

Vikas Dilawari

Do we need to qualify ‘the artistic intent of the conservation architect’ else anything will go in the name of artistic intent. But I am aware it is a difficult qualification to make.

Priyaleen Singh

This clause allows the conservation architect to decide whether to replicate the old or not but does not set a guide as to what should be achieved as the end result.  The idea of providing this flexibility is a good one and one that has found currency all over the world. 

However, my suggestion is that this clause should clearly state that this flexibility is only available where the new work is sympathetic to the item and does not deter from its significance.  Surely we do not want architects to create their own new monuments, sticking out of the old, like they do when asked to design a new building.

Rajeev Maini

But first attempt should be of reviving traditional material and technology.

Vikas Dilawari

The inclusion of this article as a component of Article 3: Conservation Ethics is questionable. Will it not be more appropriate as part of Article 4: Conservation Criteria and that too as the very last recommendation within it.

Poonam Verma

In case of demolishing and rebuilding, as suggested in the charter, it becomes open-ended and subjective to judge the situation and also how are we sure that this will be done or rebuilt in the same techniques it was built in.

Pankaj Modi

Despite a very well worded concept, it does not clarify whether the replacement is to emulate traditions or be contemporary perhaps following the basic built-up ratio. Is it new addition in the old fabric sensitive to the existing morphology?

The concept of Jeernodhar had its strength built in the limitation of building materials available in a particular region. Now it is not so and neither one can be sure of availability of the traditional materials and skills. Additionally, can one specify about the attitude of the new builder or the owner. Perhaps we can only aspire to specify that any new building replacing an old in a historic cultural landscape must display ‘awareness’ in concept and the highest quality in execution while being relatable with the existing built context.

Poonam Verma

This clause refers to replacing a heritage item that cannot be conserved.  Are we talking about rebuilding what was there in the first place as is suggested by the heading or are we replacing it with something totally new that suits present context and expectations?  In both cases the emphasis should be on the likely impact on the heritage significance of the subject heritage item.  

Rajeev Maini

As a principle demolishing good, sound heritage and for commercial use is pointless and should be condemned, attempts to educate the people should be the first focus.. its like having snaps of grandparents and garlanding in place that they were alive and passing their values to youngsters.

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.7).

Munish Pandit

(… thorough documentation.) “and understanding the traditional process if any as this gives an unique opportunity at least I have befitted from it.”

Vikas Dilawari

This clause repeats 3.9.2

William Logan

When does a historic structure outlive its significance? Who comprises ‘local people’? On one hand we talk constantly about sensitizing the various sections of society to the significance of our heritage … and lets also face it that the engagement with the ‘significance’ is largely a scholarly activity. Most just live with it. And that to me has come as the strength of our country. The ease with which our society lives with the traditions without labeling and boxing it as mental concepts. Do we really need this article? The drive to be modern and developed and the real estate driven aspiring builders are taking good care of getting rid of so-called insignificant heritage without formal sanction. Cess building regulations are also aiding such transitions amply.

Poonam Verma

If this is allowed… How many historic structures of Delhi have their meaning to local community or users? … Why conservationists saved Choumachi tomb in Mehrauli… We all know the contemporary use of Mirza Galib’s haveli … Do we have any chance for saving any structure in old Delhi? What about the Historic villages of Delhi.

Munish Pandit

Is this needed in a Conservation Charter?

Priyaleen Singh

Clause 3.14.3 is extremely dangerous in this respect.  It suggests that if a historic structure has lost its meaning to Local people, parts of it may be reused to meet other exigencies.  I would strongly suggest that this clause be taken out completely.  

One example that comes to mind is the Wall of the Walled city of Delhi.  Until recently it was not on the ASI/SDA lists and it was also not on the list adopted by MCD.  Items such as these would come under this Charter.  Clause 3.14.3 would technically allow a local Neta to get 1000 signatures from the LOCAL PEOPLE to prove that the Wall has lost its meaning to them and therefore should be demolished.

Rajeev Maini

(If a historic structure has outlived its significance) “naturally” …

(… other exigencies.) “More important is salvage to be reused as resources are limited like wood, cast-iron, stained glass, basalt stone etc…not be misunderstood that this encourages demolition.”

Vikas Dilawari

It is there in the Venice charter, (A.7).

Munish Pandit

Again like snaps of grandparents and garland why a western approach here if its traditional Indian site and setting, document the technique and art of process.

Vikas Dilawari

4

4.1.1

4.1.2

4.2.1

4.2.2

4.2.3

4.2.4

4.3

4.3.1

4.3.2

4.3.3

4.3.4

4.3.5

4.4.1

4.5.1

4.6

4.6.1

4.7.1

Conservation Criteria

Sustaining heritage, conservation tools and techniques are very region specific in India, especially in case of indigenous architecture. I have seen old temples having brand new fabric and are constantly rebuilt without losing their cultural significance. In such contexts where does the issue of conjecture and restoration arrive?

Do we want conservation to be professional-centric or people-centric?

Rajender Singh

This seems to be Conservation Objectives, rather than Criteria. (cf. World Heritage criteria, or the simpler Burra Charter criteria of aesthetic, scientific, social, spiritual, etc.

William Logan

Although I agree in general with the concept of moving away from the Protection as practiced by ASI and State Departments of Archaeology by putting Items behind bars, I do not think we need to achieve this by giving it all up either.  There are several references in the Charter that lead me to believe this document is pushing too far too quick.  Yes, the past must have a Present to be able to have a Future! But it should be a Present that is linked to the past. Probably it is just a matter of getting the words right so that the reader does not get the wrong impression.  I am all for removing the shackles of ASI mentality in managing the future of heritage items to ensure a heritage item/precinct is treated as an asset in a regeneration project rather than a liability.

Rajeev Maini

It addresses the built character but not fully the visual character. The advertisements boards, signage, hanging wires, cables, AC units, dish antennas, etc. when all viewed together add to visual cacophony and detracts from the historic character immensely and perhaps, some recommendation could be formulated to address these.

Additionally, tasteful and sensitive lighting of selected heritage buildings can add to mass appreciation of the built fabric and thus bonding with it and needs to be mentioned.

Street furniture, paving material, street lighting, road signage etc. too all are component of visual character when viewed as group in context of historical settlement. Though components of urban design but when in historic district, objectives of conservation can mediate.

Poonam Verma

(This image … society.) “for personnel uses and avoid shear commercial exploitation.”

Vikas Dilawari

… or can be good honest modern too learning from rich past experiences viz a viz details, techniques materials, design, climatic and urabn design responsive…this is a debatable stuff, but a good point. I say good party manners you can be different but within certain quorum or discipline and not stand out as loud. 

Vikas Dilawari

(Reusing … sensible.) “very often in cities and towns we misuse, abuse, overuse, and disuse…only in commercially unviable situations is a vacant property for adaptive reuse.”

(It is an … the process.) “with clever and creative modern ideas for its sustainability.”

Good point, but benefit to larger society and area is most important.

Vikas Dilawari

(Priority … functions.) “if they are valid…no forcing, education is very essential, that’s social role of conservation architect complementing his professional role.”

(Any new use … architectural heritage.) “should have some benefit for the society.”

Vikas Dilawari

And depending upon significance can allow contemporary materials as last option if they don’t harm the fabric and makes it sustainable.

Vikas Dilawari

Good point but truth is local people care less due lack of education of heritage.

Vikas Dilawari

And shouldn’t we mention here that they need to be involved in selecting an appropriate re-use from which they may directly benefit.

Nupur Prothi

In addition to the very well drafted recommendations in Article 4.3, perhaps recording process undertaken and display of the same wherever possible may be included. This may prove valuable at the time of fresh intervention in later years. Documentation of decision-making process and actual execution are important aspects for continuity.

Poonam Verma

Omit the word ‘anastylosis’, as only the Greeks understand what it really means.

Sir Bernard Feilden

A school of thought that I follow is that buildings are alive and are like patients and we are doctors operating it who use the best judgment to respect the original creations and does what’s essential as per medical ethics.

Vikas Dilawari

4.3.1 and 4.3.3 can be clubbed?

Priyaleen Singh

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

This can go in ‘Why Conserve?’ as it is talking about the rationale for conservation.

Priyaleen Singh

It may be worth enlarging it by a sentence or so to extend the parameters of your reference to experiential qualities of the built environment. This would then link over to the additions under integrity and be a good cross-reference.

Ken Taylor

(Conservation … building/ precinct.) “if cultural significance demands it.”

(It must aim … community.) “if economically viable whereas the patronage!!! Is there a market demand…”?

(The rebuilding … influence of globalization.) “good theoretically and ideally but reality is different results in poor imitation the sad examples seen everyday by the MHCC (Mumbai heritage conservation committee…key and success in good honest modern works too…debatable.”

Vikas Dilawari

Great point.

Vikas Dilawari

This clause might go better in the section on Conjecture.

William Logan

“… evidence supported by the knowledge of local craftspeople” - probably the most beautiful sentence of the charter.

Niels Gutschow

Discretion is to be used as many of the original links are destroyed or broken.

Vikas Dilawari

The second sentence: “the objective of this practice …” is intellectually challenging. … if sensibilities of mankind and culture is conceded to be in state of evolution constantly and if we accept that tangibles and intangibles are the records of this process at any given time then one can conceptualise continuity. However, I have difficulties in believing that one can ever recreate the ‘original meaning’. Perhaps at best, we may be able to interpret the ‘original meaning’ employing all tools and clues provided through the tangibles and intangibles and record the same to then pave way for recreation.

Poonam Verma

It can go in ‘Why Conserve?’ as it is talking about the rationale for conservation.

Priyaleen Singh

(The criteria … raj mistris,) “all traditional craftsmen” (labour and materials.)

(Prolonging … heritage) “which is the foundation of our heritage.”

Vikas Dilawari

Cost analysis short term vs long term.

Vikas Dilawari

It is much reduced in scope. The ICOMOS Charter for the Conservation of Historic Towns lists out main principles and objectives for the conservation of historic areas and perhaps deserves to be included in the reference list.

Poonam Verma

“social and economic aspirations of the society” - again a very vague expression. I don’t a “society” but many societies, groups, contesting dreams.

Niels Gutschow

(Conservation … society.) “ideal utopian situation where goddess Saraswati and Laxmi are together rarely seen but not impossible.”

(To that extent … option.) “change name of conservation areas or zones to sensitive development zones, it is a positive message.”

Vikas Dilawari

This has already been mentioned in 1.3.

Priyaleen Singh

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

5

5.1.1

5.2

5.2.2

5.3.1

Guidelines for Conservation

I suggest this is omitted, as this publication is out of print, and probably out of date, reference to it only complicates the situation.

Sir Bernard Feilden

Will the Feilden guidelines be an attachment to the INTACH Charter? I think they should be.

William Logan

How these are exclusive to Indian Context… Guidelines by John Marshal, being used by ASI hold as good…

We also Have “Icomos Charter- Principles For The Analysis, Conservation And Structural Restoration Of Architectural Heritage (2003)

Munish Pandit

Refers to guidelines prepared by Sir Feilden.  I have absolutely great respect for him, but I wish the Guidelines for Conservation in the Indian Context were written by an Indian.  If we cannot trust one Indian let us form a group to write the new guidelines.

Rajeev Maini

This can be enhanced or revised after discussions- however its great compilation till date, make it a book a note book or coffee table book easily reachable to masses which want to learn and restore their buildings)

Vikas Dilawari

… the mention that the Heritage Zone covering unprotected architectural heritage must (my emphasis) align itself with the development process may be misleading. Development, as we all know too well, often takes the side of commercial interests, leaving the heritage to sink in a flurry of constructional activity.

It would be better to emphasise the role which conserved heritage will certainly play in providing development through local income generation by tourism, craft, etc. 

S R Holkar

And I support the idea of conservation being part of development as promoted by the concept of Heritage Zone.

Rajeev Maini

Please call it sensitive development areas as they do in France sets a positive message.

Vikas Dilawari

This is a policy decision by local governments. NGO can play a role of pressure group… its INTACH’s policy Decision.

Munish Pandit

(Regulations … Planning Act.) “with healthy debates within professional before making any law, like in this case of charter.”

Vikas Dilawari

Good point.

Vikas Dilawari

6

6.1

6.2

6.2.1

6.2.2

6.2.4

6.2.5

6.2.6

6.3

6.3.1

6.3.2

6.3.2

6.3.3

6.3.3

6.3.4

6.3.5

6.5

6.5.1

6.5.2

Management

It is there in UNESCO: Operational Guidelines

Munish Pandit

Your sections 6.2.3 and 6.2.4 parallel our discussions in the constituent countries of the United Kingdom to achieve a regular and continuously updated review of the historic environment. 

(Incidentally, we have tended more and more in recent years to adopt the expression ‘historic environment’ as embracing not only buildings but also their historically or artistically significant contents, their settings, and their wider contexts.)

Peter Burman

This clause talks about entrusting the local communities with responsibilities. I suggest we use the words Enabling Communities.  It is not enough to give responsibility.  We must also give them the knowledge and resources to manage their heritage.

Rajeev Maini

Good point but debatable… Italy, Turkey and India are in same boat… consultation of select team of knowledgeable local people.

Vikas Dilawari

Our traditional skills, held today by raj mistris etc. are disappearing at an alarming rate. The creation of training centres where these skills can be taught to a new generation of craftsmen and women is essential if we, and especially our children, are to succeed in maintaining architectural heritage. INTACH can play a nodal role in bringing together teachers, from where ever they might be and students - local masons, carpenters, plasterers, and stone workers, to ensure that this knowledge is transmitted.

S R Holkar

If the conservation is to be properly institutionalized, focus is required in upgrading the date base for execution for the works. Urgently, needed are the detail specifications for traditional works to be compiled regionally and basic schedule of rates to be formulated in tandem with ASI and SDA for the same.

Poonam Verma

INTACH can bring about a major change by setting up regional or zonal resource centres with facilities available for testing, documentation and a panel of resource people well versed in the understanding of culture, technology and materials, geography and history of these regions.

Pankaj Modi

These were not part of INTACH’s Constitution so far?

Munish Pandit

Is it becoming a very INTACH specific Charter? Shouldn’t other initiatives also be following all that is stated in the Charter? May be there should be another document on the Role of INTACH, of which the Charter can be a part?

Priyaleen Singh

I am not sure that INTACH should see itself as an agency that needs to institutionalize conservation within itself.  It should be quite the opposite.  INTACH should be working towards making conservation part of everyday life.  My understanding has been that it was doing exactly this through its chapters.

Instead INATCH should be pushing Governments to establish City or State level or even National Heritage Offices that can work on a legislative and administrative framework for heritage conservation.  If not separate Heritage offices, even if INTACH could influence Governments to employ Conservation Architects as part of various Development Authorities, it could be a major movement forward.

Also I am not sure why does INTACH need to redefine its role by way of this Charter.  Does it not have its own Charter that can be amended if it needs a new direction?

Rajeev Maini

Who prima fascia have served as watchdogs, as facilitators or a bridge between to demolish and to conserve and for educating masses, if it misses this role then we are heading for trouble.. they should not become professionals and professionals should not become activist or NGO’s.

Vikas Dilawari

Not by executing.

Vikas Dilawari

Rather than this negative point it should encourage good conservation and constitutes prestigious awards that bring conservation to focus.

Vikas Dilawari

Should be a lead organization and not compete with other local NGOs.

Vikas Dilawari

(INTACH must … heritage.) “That should be its basic role.”

It should have a center for intangible study and should share this information with practitioners.

Vikas Dilawari

The economic benefits listed out are all based on the government policies, which thus makes them all the more difficult to implement and accountable, but they are very welcome. But as the whole objective of the charter has been for local empowerment, why not the same economic benefits also be considered at these levels such as adoption of the building, re-use of the buildings for local social infrastructure, periodic use for the local traditions and functions, local methods of tourism benefits…

Pankaj Modi

This is purely Government policy based…

Munish Pandit

Futile - it first and foremost requires a PIL to abolish rent control act from heritage properties, what incentives will work if there is rent control… It’s a vote bank so no wants to bell the cat, rest of world abolished this draconian law of World War II in 1960’s and we still are endorsing it… Presently as per Supreme Court ruling the owners with turnover of 1 crore have to pay market rent has been a boon for conservation in Mumbai at least… This is first thing essential, second do not allowed salvaged to be sold… a national/local repository is essential… if these are introduced half the problems are solved.

Vikas Dilawari

I fail to see how INTACH’s charter can force Central & State Governments to include allocation for Heritage Fund in their budgets (Clause 6.3.2).

Rajeev Maini

Good point- case study MMRDA - good and bad both.

Vikas Dilawari

The policy of Adoption by a rich company (6.3.3) is a good one provided it is backed up by a rock solid contract.  The Adoption must be time bound (two-three years at a time).  Extensions may be possible provided the company has done what it said it would. There should be a clause allowing the owner to cancel the contract at short notice if it believes that the company is misusing the item/precinct. There should be a clause relating to penalties if the company damages/misuses the heritage item knowingly etc. 

Rajeev Maini

These are things that Government Departments other than INTACH will need to get into and frankly speaking I am not very confident of what sort of contracts they can write.  Maybe INTACH should prepare a MODEL contract for this purpose to give to various Govt. Departments.

Good point- should be complemented with awards well covered by media.

Vikas Dilawari

Hold on - Bombay has lot to say the hidden truth.

Vikas Dilawari

Govt. rules can never allow this, change the CPWD and PWD format first.

Vikas Dilawari

This clause refers to Punitive Measures relating to listed buildings.  I do not see why this Clause should be in a Charter dealing with Items that are Unlisted.

Rajeev Maini

Omit ‘where opportunity exists, as a new set of regulations can be implemented’. This is a very dangerous suggestion.

Sir Bernard Feilden

Suggest deletion of reference to irreparable. Lesser forms of damage might also warrant prosecutions. It is not clear to me what the reference to ‘probable unrest’ means.

William Logan

No city has any teeth that are essential for protection…Bombay is the most impotent of all…the analogy that I use is heritage committee is like a sign beware of dogs for decent people however the crooks no that’s this only a board and that there is no dogs.

Laws should be with good sound base and flexible taking day-to-day needs and quality of life in account and should not be rigid based on role models in UK made by environmentalist going abroad on holidays and changing the name from London to respective cities.

Vikas Dilawari

7

7.1.1

7.1.3

7.1.4

7.2.2

7.2.4

7.2.5

7.3.1 (i)

        (ii)

       (iii)

7.4

7.4.1

7.5

7.5.1

7.5.2

7.7.1

7.8

7.9.1

7.9.2

7.10.1

7.10.3

7.11

7.11.3

Listing

Missing in the recommendation format for listing is Natural Heritage. As no format has thus been evolved for this important component, till date, the employed format has another selection criteria as Natural in addition to those mentioned in 7.3.

Poonam Verma

Though listing includes words like holistic and settlements etc. it presupposes a disaggregated and component (read building) oriented inventory. The interface with ecology and nature or architecture as a part of natural heritage sites has received only passing references.

Kiran Kalamdani

Do we need this section in the Charter?

In the complete section what is not western… US agencies (Dept. of Interior, NPS, NCPTT) have documented recourses (Professionals, crafts persons, agencies, online sources) for implementing the conservation plans. National register is based on their concept only.

Munish Pandit

The section on the making of and the purpose of an Inventory of Properties/Buildings is full of promising sentiments, not least the idea that listing should be presented to both scholars and the general public in a ‘simple, readable format, which would then aid conservation by generating public awareness’.

Peter Burman

I appreciate the need for listing but do not agree that we need to write the whole process as part of this charter.  In the Charter we should be stating the principals rather than the details. 

I am also wondering, is it not possible to adopt some international listing guidelines rather than reinventing the wheel again? That way we will be able to be part of the international database as the data will be readily comparable and transportable.

Rajeev Maini

Imagine, if at a future date we could search for 11^th century minarets belonging to a certain architectural type in the world through a unified or linked database, we could find out that the Qutab Minar is based on the architectural lessons learnt from the Minaret of Jam in Afghanistan!

The other issue of import is the accessibility of this comprehensive list by general public.  The list MUST be publicly accessible on the net.  Without that the value of this list is going to be severely limited to the present and the future generations.  Examples of such lists are already there on the net. I am so used to a net based inventory from my office that it seems almost waste of time to do anything else knowing it can be done.  By the way the information that you see on the net is only part of the data.  There is a whole lot more that relates to various approvals over time and administrative information etc.  The Inventory is at www.heritage.nsw.gov.au

Also It is very important that whatever list be prepared, it be done on a well-established data base system.  As the list will grow, it is going to reach tens of thousands in future.  The database must be able to support not only listing but a management module should also be able to hang off it. It would be still better if these two could be linked to a mailing list and address book as well. I really wish I could show you what system we use in our office.  It may not be the best but it does show what can be achieved or is required in the long run. In any case the point is that the Listing section should include a clause about the accessibility of the listing by everyone as an important part of the listing process.

Although I know how difficult it is, I almost yearn to see a time frame set by this Charter for INTACH to complete this comprehensive list.  I am sure whatever time frame is set will not be met eventually but at least it sets a measure of success and a goal to look forward to.  In the absence of any time frame, the efforts do not get a sense of priority and therefore allocation of funds.  It will set a goal to achieve.

Please sit in a committee once that reviews this and see how many cases are heard on this format. Its great academically but practical is different strange in 20 years time we still don’t want to revise this based on experiences.

Vikas Dilawari

First and foremost no honorary heritage committees are required. Each municipal corporation and panchayat should have a full fledged department set up without it...do not blindly ape Mumbai it is has good points and bad points please incorporate good points and leave the bad points…

Is it necessary or appropriate to include this rhetorical and descriptive introduction to Article? The other Articles do not have similar introductory passages. This sort of rhetoric and description belongs to the start of the whole document.

William Logan

Please can we have an indigenous name rather a US copy.

Vikas Dilawari

(It would … Heritage Laws.) “This is not clear!!”

Nupur Prothi

I very much like your suggestion for a Register of Craftspeople.

Peter Burman

(Only on the … drawn up.) “With good healthy discussions amongst professionals and multi-disciplinary team rather being in hurry of being first.”

Vikas Dilawari

(The main aim … awareness.) “But with listing also its fast disappearing, Mumbai classic example…the MHCC should be called pastiche reconstruction board.”

(Ideally … cities.) “with clear demarcation of site and buildings.”

Vikas Dilawari

Can create many confusion, becomes a volleyball match, Bombay has many examples.

Vikas Dilawari

Why not cultural?

Please note while listing many a times you do it only from road … How can you comment on integrity without seeing it in detail, also people are hostile too, in cases - police protection is required.

Domestic architecture does not allow this, the person doing listing has to be a desirably a local with sound understanding or you get Jain omelete.

Please see from strength, type of repairs, maintenance point of view which has economics attached to it or it will be a good academic exercise only.

Vikas Dilawari

This is a topic in itself will refrain from commenting as I can write on paper on it based on my experience in Bombay while doing the list, as the member of committee and as practicing conservation architect.

Vikas Dilawari

… reference to important persons: would it be helpful here to point out that important does not mean rich and famous but includes people, and ordinary people, who have made/make significant contribution to India’s living heritage.

Ken Taylor

(Distinctive physical … a master.) “Craftsmen or architect.”

Vikas Dilawari

Historic Integrity: integrity relates also to intangible value such as association and cultural traditions, and I think it would be helpful to the Charter to include these.